Curse

DieInBasra · Apr 10, 2006, 01:19 AM // 01:19

Maybe you missed my point. What I was trying to say is that in a regular gvg, you cast recall at the begining and it isn't a huge burden on your energy since you only spend 15e preparing(Hex Breaker, Critial Eye,Siphon Speed), giving you a pool of 15 to start from, and Assasins have good enough energy recovery from critical hits and zealous daggers. This build isn't going to be countered by Gaurdian because no good player is going to overextend too much. This means that they'll all be close, at least a bit outside the aggro bubble of the monks, which doesn't take more then a second or two to cross. This means you can easily switch targets if you're current one has Gaurdian. This means that you're energy managment isn't going to be castrated as easily as you're trying to say it will be. This means that you can use Psy. distraction often enough, since your bar doesn't care it's it's blacked out(mostly long duration/recharge skills) and you'll have the energy mangement for it.

But I'm sorry, if you truly think a boonprot can just throw a gaurdian around, you're absolutly wrong. If we're talking vacuums, then I'd agree, but we're talking 8v8 where he'll have edenial up his ass and an axe warrior rageing his face. If it were that easy to stop a melee character from getting hits, I'm afraid we wouldn't have the metagame that we do right now.

NatalieD · Apr 10, 2006, 01:23 AM // 01:23

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Originally Posted by Siren

You had a day and some odd hours to reply and all you give me is this? If you can't reply with an actual counter to my points, don't bother replying. Or reply and just concede the points. Right now you've done neither.

Actual counters have been supplied many times over. If you go around sticking your fingers in your ears and singing LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU, don't be surprised that people stop talking to you.

Siren · Apr 10, 2006, 02:10 AM // 02:10

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Originally Posted by DieInBasra

Maybe you missed my point. What I was trying to say is that in a regular gvg, you cast recall at the begining and it isn't a huge burden on your energy since you only spend 15e preparing(Hex Breaker, Critial Eye,Siphon Speed), giving you a pool of 15 to start from, and Assasins have good enough energy recovery from critical hits and zealous daggers.

Are you suggesting that you could prep Hex Breaker, Critical Eye, and Siphon Speed before Recall? If you are, there are some problems with that.

Hex Breaker and Critical Eye can be used before the player gets in range, sure.

But Siphon Speed cannot.

If you cast those three skills before Recall, you've already broken aggro range, and then from within aggro range, you'd have to cast Recall on one of your non-Warrior, backline allies. That's pretty damn risky, especially when you can't waste any time with a build of this nature. As soon as you break that aggro bubble, you need to be in your target's face.

Casting Recall before anything else is the only way to achieve that goal. And since you'd want to max the duration for Hex Breaker and Critical Eye, casting them before Recall makes little strategic sense. You're basically throwing away a few seconds of those durations because they aren't doing anything to help you at that point.

And that relates to the energy recovery. If you're not in your target's face immediately after casting Siphon, you're not going to have energy coming in. Or at the very least, you'll have a measly 2E every 3 seconds from your reduced natural regen, which isn't helping you at all to use the build. If you're taking time after prepping Hex Breaker, Critical Eye, and Siphon to cast Recall, you have no energy management, because you aren't attacking.

The order of skill prep for this build has to be Recall-->Critical Eye-->Hex Breaker-->Siphon. That's the only way to utilize the durations, reduced natural energy regen, and energy costs "effectively," and I put that in quotes because even the most effective utilization isn't that effective at all.

And if you're suggesting the opposite, that Recall can be cast first with no problem, setting-up for the build will still burn through your entire energy reserves. And going into battle with zero energy and reduced natural regen is a bad idea.

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This build isn't going to be countered by Gaurdian because no good player is going to overextend too much. This means that they'll all be close, at least a bit outside the aggro bubble of the monks, which doesn't take more then a second or two to cross. This means you can easily switch targets if you're current one has Gaurdian.

Who says anything about over-extending? I'm not talking about players spread out across the landscape. I'm talking about players being far enough apart so that the Psychic Assassin player ends up wasting more time than the build is actually worth. Let's not forget with every missed attack, with every required target-switch, with every block, with every bit of WarHate and snares within that aggro circle, that Assassin's energy management is going to be awful. And then that'll force him to Recall the hell out of there.

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This means that you're energy managment isn't going to be castrated as easily as you're trying to say it will be. This means that you can use Psy. distraction often enough, since your bar doesn't care it's it's blacked out(mostly long duration/recharge skills) and you'll have the energy mangement for it.

You only have energy management when there is absolutely nothing to impede your progress. And given the current PvP game? I'm seeing Wards, WarHate, CripShot, etc. And those will impede your progress. For this build in particular, Ward Against Foes might as well be considered an ward version of Shadow of Fear, because it's definitely slowing the attack rate when the Assassin can't run fast enough to start swinging.

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But I'm sorry, if you truly think a boonprot can just throw a gaurdian around, you're absolutly wrong.

For two teammates? Yes, I do think that, especially if that Boon-Prot has proper support, like a solid Necro (we're all very much aware of what a good Necro can do for Monk Support). And let's not forget that WarHate Necro can always screw with the Psychic Assassin a bit, as Hex Breaker can only do so much. Or what about a Ranger using CripShot? Or even Pin Down? Or Eles using Ward Against Foes/Melee? Or what about KDs?

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but we're talking 8v8 where he'll have edenial up his ass and an axe warrior rageing his face. If it were that easy to stop a melee character from getting hits, I'm afraid we wouldn't have the metagame that we do right now.

And the Boon-Prot's teammates are doing nothing? What happened to the WarHate Necro? Why is the edenial Mesmer able to do whatever the hell he pleases? Where's the pressure on him?

I'm talking in a vacuum here? I'm not the one supporting a build that will only work in a vacuum.

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Originally Posted by NatalieD

Actual counters have been supplied many times over. If you go around sticking your fingers in your ears and singing LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU, don't be surprised that people stop talking to you.

Natalie, you're so adorable. Seriously, folks, could this member get any cuter with her replies?

swordfisher · Apr 10, 2006, 03:34 AM // 03:34

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And going into battle with zero energy [and a...] measly 2E every 3 seconds from your reduced natural regen

You suggest that the assassin will wait around with only 2 pips of regen- that's accounting for the negative pip from zealous daggers, which are only equipped when actually attacking. Trying to passively regen with your zealous out is boneheaded in all situations.

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Are you suggesting that you could prep Hex Breaker, Critical Eye, and Siphon Speed before Recall? If you are, there are some problems with that.
Hex Breaker and Critical Eye can be used before the player gets in range, sure. But Siphon Speed cannot.

You say yourself that all I'll lose by taking a little natural regen before engaging is a few seconds off my preps. Hexbreaker doesn't mind a bit, Critical Eye can spend a couple seconds out of its 33, and the cost of Recall has naturally regened already. Yes, Siphon Speed must be cast as you engage, but that's all right. It's a 5e hex.
But your argument for why I have to dive straight into combat appears to be because the energy gains are so much better when I'm fighting. And it's true, they are. But is that really a problem with spending a few seconds to regen energy at 3 pips?

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The order of skill prep for this build has to be Recall-->Critical Eye-->Hex Breaker-->Siphon.

Critical Eye has 33 second duration. Hexbreaker, about 50. I seriously doubt that hexbreaker will last the full 50 seconds, or even 30. Therefore, hexbreaker->critical eye->siphon. A minor point, but necessary.

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I'm seeing Wards, WarHate, CripShot, etc. And those will impede your progress.

It's my intention to use the powers of the assassin to interrupt that hate wherever possible. Some of it I'll have to accept, most likely, but the point is to eliminate as much as can be managed. In this way, the Assassin should build steam, because reducing the amount of hate against it will allow it to function at greater efficiency- and presumably allow it to interrupt more.

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Or what about a Ranger using CripShot? Or even Pin Down?

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And the Boon-Prot's teammates are doing nothing?

Well neither, I hope, are mine. I truly wish this character could have a skill to counter everything in the game, but there are only 8 slots, and I don't have any way to slip an efficient condition management skill in. I'll have to wait for a teammate to remove the cripple. As for hexes, I've done as much as I can in that regard, more than most builds.

I had taken a break from this conversation to see where it would go. It seems like Natalie's getting tired of arguing with you, so I'm here to take over.

Siren · Apr 10, 2006, 03:55 PM // 15:55

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Originally Posted by swordfisher

You suggest that the assassin will wait around with only 2 pips of regen- that's accounting for the negative pip from zealous daggers, which are only equipped when actually attacking. Trying to passively regen with your zealous out is boneheaded in all situations.

No, I'm actually suggesting the complete opposite. That the Psychic Assassin absolutely cannot waste any time, because his entire build depends on him swinging at enemies so he can spam a 10E Mesmer Elite interrupt that's going to disable all of his skills for roughly 12 seconds.

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You say yourself that all I'll lose by taking a little natural regen before engaging is a few seconds off my preps. Hexbreaker doesn't mind a bit, Critical Eye can spend a couple seconds out of its 33, and the cost of Recall has naturally regened already. Yes, Siphon Speed must be cast as you engage, but that's all right. It's a 5e hex.

But why waste even a few seconds? When even the two seconds required to find a new target will cheat you out of...about 4E per hit (and roughly 6-8E over those 2.66 seconds)...why would you intentionally cast Hex Breaker and Critical Eye before anything else? You need to be able to get maximum performance from those two skills. Casting them before Recall is not going to do that.

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But your argument for why I have to dive straight into combat appears to be because the energy gains are so much better when I'm fighting. And it's true, they are. But is that really a problem with spending a few seconds to regen energy at 3 pips?

You're regaining 3 energy every 3 seconds. To even break 15E regained (the cost of Recall), you're waiting 15 seconds, if my math isn't completely wrong here. If you want to regen the cost of Recall, you're going to be wasting 15 seconds of the Critical Eye and Hex Breaker durations. You should not depend on natural regen for this build. Your energy regen depends on you hitting the enemy. I can't see any other way around it, really. The math doesn't add up any other way.

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Critical Eye has 33 second duration. Hexbreaker, about 50. I seriously doubt that hexbreaker will last the full 50 seconds, or even 30. Therefore, hexbreaker->critical eye->siphon. A minor point, but necessary.

I was considering adding an aside in my previous post to explain that Hex Breaker and Critical Eye could be switched, as the purpose of the skill order I listed previously focused more on how Recall and Siphon Speed fit into everything. It's interesting how I don't see Recall in your order there. It's nowhere to be found between Hex Breaker, Critical Eye, and Siphon Speed.

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It's my intention to use the powers of the assassin to interrupt that hate wherever possible. Some of it I'll have to accept, most likely, but the point is to eliminate as much as can be managed. In this way, the Assassin should build steam, because reducing the amount of hate against it will allow it to function at greater efficiency- and presumably allow it to interrupt more.

You do realize that's going to be roughly 2-3 ranged interrupts with one skill, right? That means 2-3 fast target changes. And you'd need to be fast enough to catch the Wards...and they don't cast all that slowly. Visually identifying a Necro casting Faintheartedness or Shadow of Fear is going to be difficult (especially if you don't have much practice reading the battlefield for successful interrupts), which means in order to actually catch something like that, you'd need to be Tab/Shift+Tabbing around very often.

Try it sometime. Even something as simple as walking outside of Sardelac Sanitarium and aggro a few Stone Elementals. I was using a zealous sword and Parasitic Bond (similar spell stats to Psy.Dis), and I'll tell you right now that the pause between casting and swinging is noticeable, not to mention how a battlefield with 8-10 targets (I've been seeing lots of pets lately) doesn't have the same type of Tab/Shift+Tab order occasionally. Hell, in order to interrupt the WarHate and Wards and such...you need to hope those targets will be in order. Otherwise, Tab/Shift+Tab isn't going to work, because it'll be selecting a few targets in-between.

And using the mouse is completely out. It re-targets your auto-attack, and it's imprecise as hell for targeting in general.

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Well neither, I hope, are mine. I truly wish this character could have a skill to counter everything in the game, but there are only 8 slots, and I don't have any way to slip an efficient condition management skill in. I'll have to wait for a teammate to remove the cripple. As for hexes, I've done as much as I can in that regard, more than most builds.

Hex Breaker. But what do you do when it triggers, and it's been disabled for a few seconds (or 12 seconds) from Psy.Dis? And Wards can't be removed (yet), you know...and interrupting them won't be easy, especially when you're trying to Tab around for Psy.Dis.

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I had taken a break from this conversation to see where it would go. It seems like Natalie's getting tired of arguing with you, so I'm here to take over.

Nah, Natalie's too adorable to be tired. Her debating methods and strategies are cute as a button!

Shatterstone · Apr 10, 2006, 05:35 PM // 17:35

massive problem with your whole strategy:range. your using Psy.Dis because its a long range interupt....but an assassin needs to be close to score his critical hits. so no energy boosts for you. this build so far doesnt look like it would work.

Beat_Go_Stick · Apr 12, 2006, 05:53 PM // 17:53

Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaay!!!

Theoretical Flame Wars!!!! I'll bet my assumptions about how the Assassin class combined with a new and untested Mesmer elite skill could beat up your assumptions